Liz Moorehead
Youβd think one episode would have been enough to cover landing pages, but if last week taught us anything, itβs that we barely scratched the surface. So, of course, we had to come back for part two. And trust me, this second episode on HubSpot landing pages went places.
After our first conversation, I couldnβt stop thinking about all the ways businesses still get landing pages wrongβnot just in execution, but in how they think about them. For years, marketers have treated landing pages as a transactional exchange: βYou give me your information, I give you this thing.β But that mindset doesnβt hold up anymore. Consumers are savvier, expectations are higher, and a poorly executed landing page doesnβt just fail to convertβit actively damages trust.
π Go Deeper: Wait, We've NEVER Done an Episode on HubSpot Landing Pages?
Thatβs why we took this episode beyond the basics. This isnβt just a βhow-toβ for building a better landing pageβitβs a much bigger conversation about what it actually means to create a high-value conversion experience. How do you get people to want to fill out your form instead of feeling like theyβre being tricked into it? How do you tell a compelling story on a landing page without overwhelming or boring your audience? And how do you balance the need for personalization, speed, and clarity in an era where attention spans are shrinking, but expectations are growing?
George, Max, and I didnβt hold back. From outdated landing page tactics that desperately need to die to how AI and smart content are reshaping personalization, we dug into whatβs working, whatβs failing, and what businesses need to do differently. We also got into the real problem with gated content (hint: itβs not just about putting a form in front of something) and why most thank-you pages are wasted opportunities. If you want your landing pages to actually workβnot just existβthis is the episode for you.
Keywords
HubSpot, landing pages, certifications, inbound marketing, user experience, content marketing, email collection, marketing ethics, continuous learning, best practices, marketing, landing pages, smart content, AI tools, user experience, personalization, attention span, value-driven content, HubSpot, conversion strategy
What We Cover
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Outdated Landing Page Practices That Need to Die: We revisit common mistakes marketers are still making, from forcing visitors through unnecessary steps to removing navigation in an attempt to βtrapβ them.
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How to Write Landing Page Copy That Actually Converts: Thereβs a difference between slapping a few bullet points onto a page and actually selling the value of what youβre offering. We break down how to structure landing page messaging that builds trust and drives action.
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The Role of Smart Content in Landing Pages: HubSpot has given us some incredible tools to personalize the landing page experience, but most marketers still arenβt using them. We discuss how to leverage smart content, dynamic CTAs, and other personalization features effectively.
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Gated vs. Ungated Content: Whereβs the Line?: Not all content should be behind a formβbut not everything should be freely accessible either. We talk about how to decide whatβs worth gating and why forcing someone to fill out a form for something that should be free is a terrible idea.
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How AI is Changing Landing Pages: From copy generation to dynamic personalization, AI is reshaping how we build landing pages. We explore where AI can genuinely improve conversion ratesβand where it can make your pages feel lifeless and generic.
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Why Your Thank You Pages Are Failing You: A thank-you page isnβt just a dead-endβitβs an opportunity to continue the conversation. We discuss how to turn thank-you pages into engagement engines that drive deeper connections and future conversions.
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The Psychology of Landing Pages and the Attention Economy: Consumers are more skeptical than ever, and attention spans are shrinking. So how do you build trust quickly, create compelling experiences, and get people to actually engage with your landing pages?
And so much more ...
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Liz Moorehead: And we're back for another episode of Hub Heroes, guys. How y'all
[00:00:04] George B. Thomas: we are, hey, hey, doing great. Before we dive into the actual conversation, by the way, because I know we're, this is like, uh, part two of the Electric Boogaloo, you know,
[00:00:14] Liz Moorehead: That was going to be my joke. Yes.
[00:00:16] George B. Thomas: well, you, you can, you can still use it. I'm old enough to have actually watched Break Into Electric Boogaloo.
[00:00:23] Anyway, uh, but here, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I want to make sure, because I'm, I'm about to, well, I already did one. I, I re cert, uh, re certified, uh, uh, HubSpot Academy certification. Uh, last week and I'm, I'm about to be on a kick to do a whole bunch more certifications because yes, even though your boy has been in the ecosystem for 12 years, even though I've recertified these things like 4, if not 6 times, depending on the certification and how often you have to do it, I'm going to continue to do it.
[00:00:55] There's new videos. I was kind of going through ones to see, like, should I redo this? What's new? You can see the little orange dot for what you've watched. The ones you There's a lot that I haven't watched since the last time I So, I'm glad it's up All of this. All of this, Liz, Max, listeners, to say HubSpot's Academy World Certification Week.
[00:01:15] Hey, we need to we need to plan for a, a, uh,
[00:01:19] Max Cohen: Is that already coming up?
[00:01:20] George B. Thomas: No, no, no.
[00:01:22] Max Cohen: How
[00:01:22] am I here?
[00:01:23] George B. Thomas: giving us a good lead in time. We probably need to have a, uh, episode closer to this, but if you're sitting here and you're like, yeah, George, I'm like you, I need to research to, or I need to get a certification that I've been wanting to get because I never got it April 28th.
[00:01:39] Through May 2nd is when worlds are HubSpot Academy world certification week is scheduled. So just put that on your calendar right now. Everybody
[00:01:47] Liz Moorehead: it's going to be like a month.
[00:01:48] George B. Thomas: It's, it's well, uh, April 28th to May 2nd. No, it's in a month.
[00:01:52] Liz Moorehead: That's what I'm saying. It's in about a month.
[00:01:53] George B. Thomas: yeah, yeah. In about a month. So I'm trying to, the reason I'm bringing that up is because like, if we schedule it, it can happen.
[00:02:00] And so many times in the past couple of years, we've been doing this, we get to it. I'm like, God, we're here already. Like even Max, like, is that coming up already? Listen, I'm giving you 30 days to block some time off in your calendar so that you can actually do some good in the world. And get your certifications as well.
[00:02:16] Okay. Sorry, Liz. I had to throw that in this morning because it's important.
[00:02:20] Liz Moorehead: No, that is really important. I mean, the reality is, is that if you're not constantly flexing and strengthening your muscles, As an inbound practitioner, no matter what your role is like, there's no such thing as reaching a point where you can stop learning.
[00:02:35] George B. Thomas: No,
[00:02:35] Liz Moorehead: I think what's so challenging to me about it is, and I'm equally guilty of this too, right?
[00:02:40] I will always find ways to say, oh, I have so much work to do. Oh, work is so much more important, but these are certifications. That actually impact your work and your ability to affect more positive change within your role. Like this isn't one of those things where it's like we're going into an abstract experience, where we're going to learn some high level concepts that might be, no, it'll actually teach you to use the tools you're using everyday better, more effectively, and to get greater outputs.
[00:03:08] George B. Thomas: Yeah. Like, I mean, listen, if you, if you do the content certification and you do the SEO certification, and maybe if you do the digital advertising certification, I bet you have some beastie landing pages by the time you're done with all that knowledge. I'm just trying to tie it back into what we're actually talking about today.
[00:03:26] You know,
[00:03:26] Max Cohen: beastly landing pages
[00:03:28] is wild, is wild.
[00:03:31] George B. Thomas: You like that?
[00:03:32] Max Cohen: I love it.
[00:03:33] I can't even remember the last time I built a landing page, if I'm being completely
[00:03:36] George B. Thomas: Oh, dude.
[00:03:37] Max Cohen: But it's because I'm not in a marketing
[00:03:38] role. I'm sure, I'm sure Nikki's built, you know, an LP or two, you know, recently.
[00:03:44] George B. Thomas: Uh oh.
[00:03:45] Max Cohen: Don't worry, I mean, I still, I'm trying to
[00:03:47] George B. Thomas: Liz. And I feel like Liz can't hear us.
[00:03:50] Max Cohen: Oh, she's on mute.
[00:03:51] George B. Thomas: and, and I'm not sure, like, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, there we go. Now we
[00:03:56] Max Cohen: That was weird, it was like the mute button was fighting you.
[00:03:58] Liz Moorehead: No, it actually still is. I have to hold my space bar down to keep my mic on.
[00:04:03] Max Cohen: That's interesting.
[00:04:04] George B. Thomas: well,
[00:04:04] Max Cohen: Liz Liz
[00:04:05] George B. Thomas: doesn't cramp up by the time this is over.
[00:04:08] Max Cohen: Liz is on push to talk right now dude.
[00:04:10] George B. Thomas: Yeah.
[00:04:11] Liz Moorehead: know why. All right. Well, anyway,
[00:04:13] George B. Thomas: we go.
[00:04:14] Liz Moorehead: here we go, guys. We're back for another round of landing pages.
[00:04:19] George B. Thomas: You know, this shouldn't surprise me that you have to hit the spacebar because if you remember last episode, the world didn't want us to talk about landing pages, like everything was happening.
[00:04:28] And now this anyway, let's talk about it.
[00:04:30] Liz Moorehead: We're still going to talk about landing pages. They're that important. And Max, you were not here for this horrific discovery that I made. Which is that we've somehow never talked about them. Like I literally went through our entire catalog. I went through our entire catalog. Couldn't find a dang thing about it.
[00:04:47] George B. Thomas: Years, bro. Years. Years of
[00:04:50] Liz Moorehead: We've talked about the social media tool twice, email marketing three times, um,
[00:04:56] George B. Thomas: 52 times.
[00:04:58] Liz Moorehead: content hub about
[00:05:00] George B. Thomas: times.
[00:05:00] Liz Moorehead: 000 times. Yeah. And so here we are.
[00:05:03] Max Cohen: 000
[00:05:05] George B. Thomas: Right, right, right. True facts right there.
[00:05:08] Max Cohen: Yeah, yeah.
[00:05:09] Liz Moorehead: we're back with part two of this incredible conversation because who knew that one of the most foundational building blocks of the HubSpot inbound marketing ecosystem would require so much discussion. Who knew?
[00:05:24] George B. Thomas: Who knew?
[00:05:25] Liz Moorehead: Who knew? Who
[00:05:26] George B. Thomas: mean us now, obviously, but
[00:05:29] Liz Moorehead: But Max, I want to start with you by asking you a question that I asked, um, George and Chad last week, particularly as someone like, you worked at HubSpot, you've been in the inbound ecosystem for a really long time.
[00:05:41] Let's start our conversation back at the beginning. And I'd love to hear from you if you think there are any outdated landing page best practices that people are still clinging to, right? Those common mistakes that people are still making.
[00:05:55] Max Cohen: Yeah, I mean, I always kind of thought the whole, uh, remove the navigation thing was kind of cringe, right, because to me it didn't, well, I don't know, I can see both sides of the argument where you want to limit distractions, right, but I think there's a fine line between limiting distractions and doing some, like, weird, uh, you know, unsavory things just to steal people's attention, right? Um, So I, I, I kind of think the whole, uh, remove the nav thing is like kind of played out. Um, and honestly, like, looking back on it, because again, I was, you know, I don't want to say guilty of teaching this, but like, you know, I definitely had it very much imprinted into my brain of like, oh, you must remove the navigation on landing pages.
[00:06:42] And the reasoning made sense, right? But, you know, thinking back on it now, Like think about how you'd react if you Were on a website and all of a sudden the nav went away, right? You'd probably be kind of distracted and like oh, wait Why is this website breaking or am I on a different website? Oh the url changed as well too because remember how everyone back then was doing like Info dot, you know, whatever. com, right? Um, you know a lot of that I think like looking back on it while like Functionally kind of made like functionally made sense there's I think plenty of things that I could look back on and go like, oh, no, maybe this wasn't like the best thing ever You know like thinking about it like a little bit more tactically, but I might be overthinking it too Because it's been a while since i've actually caught this stuff. But yeah, I think the navigation thing's kind of funky. I also think just like The thing that Kind of always bugged me too is like how much of a uh, Emphasis was put on it for just straight up lead generation Right and not actually taking it as an opportunity to educate someone with that piece of content that you're getting behind that landing page right um, like what I feel like people Thought too much was that oh i'm making this landing page So I can get somebody's email so I can send them emails later and I feel like that's the mode a lot of us were in and Maybe that's either how we directly interpreted or maybe misinterpreted the bigger picture of what inbound was,
[00:08:08] right? Um, but, you know, I, I think what a lot of people forgot is like putting a lot of special care and attention into whatever it was that that person was giving up their information in order to get,
[00:08:21] right? like, be, well, cause you forget that you have that opportunity that when someone digests that piece of content. Right and actually gets their hands on it and starts to consume it, right? Their brain is in this mode of Oh, i'm really excited to learn this thing and I just gave away some something valuable to me Which was like the means to interrupt my day and get in touch with me,
[00:08:44] right? And they're immediately going was this worth that trade off? And they're deciding like within 25 seconds if they're just going to go to their email and hit the unsubscribe from whatever you sent right because You If you were to supply them with that piece of content and then they start consuming it and then they go, oh, wait, this was a waste of time or, oh, this isn't actually helping me. They feel duped, right? So there's like a big, like, risk there, you know, that I think a lot of people didn't think about, they just kind of said, oh, we got the email, mission accomplished. Not, alright, great, we got the email, we can keep talking to them, but like, let's hope this piece of content actually shifted their brain in the right direction that we wanted to, or taught them something, or made them, Look at us more favorably after they consumed it and didn't feel like they just got tricked, right?
[00:09:32] I don't think people thought about that far
[00:09:34] George B. Thomas: Yeah. No, max. It's interesting because when I think about, you know, I'll say the good old days, but even when I see things now, when I, when I see things now, it's like, um, the email shouldn't be the goal.
[00:09:46] Max Cohen: No,
[00:09:47] George B. Thomas: The email should be an outcome of like a larger goal. And so you're right.
[00:09:51] This whole idea of what I fell in love with inbound was about it, you know, being human. And I think about if you're, if you're even thinking about having landing pages, how your brain of the person who's going to have the landing pages should probably have some type of. Value first, human centric, uh, you know, adding value to the world, to the, to the reader, to the viewer, whatever is behind that gate, it should be coming from a place where you're trying to, um, help them be better, make a situation better, fix a problem that they might, and, and so many times it's like, hey, let's, let's create this seven step checklist so we can get an email.
[00:10:29] Max Cohen: yeah, but Yeah, it's like it's the point isn't to get all for a lot of people The point is to get the email because that's all people think about right the getting the email Is, or the point of getting the email is like, we got the email, so we have a way to communicate with them, should this piece of content made them actually want to continue doing that,
[00:10:50] right? Like that, that's really kind of what it, what it should be,
[00:10:54] right? Um,
[00:10:55] George B. Thomas: shameful if you're like creating more harm than good,
[00:10:58] Max Cohen: that, and that's the thing, you, people opened up a lot of these opportunities to create a lot more harm, not in like the esoteric sense of like, Oh, they, they duped somebody and that was like morally incorrect from a marketing standpoint for them to do it. It's, it's, no, no, no. You, you turned someone into a detractor because of your content. And that sucks.
[00:11:20] George B. Thomas: the exact opposite, like, like you're trying to build trust,
[00:11:23] Max Cohen: It's like, bro, someone, someone is already a detractor of your company and they didn't even get to buying your company yet. You just marketed them into being a detractor.
[00:11:31] You didn't even get to make any money off of them. They just hate you already. What? Dude,
[00:11:36] like, come on.
[00:11:37] Cringe.
[00:11:42] George B. Thomas: is I've had time to actually think about some, some of this, and I want
[00:11:45] Liz Moorehead: Oh, yeah.
[00:11:46] George B. Thomas: one, yeah, I want to add in one that I didn't talk about, um, last time. Because HubSpot does these really cool things for us, right, and it's subtle things and sometimes when they do them, people don't even know that they've done them, and so like, if you haven't gone into your files area of HubSpot and realized that you have a tab that says stock images.
[00:12:07] And that there's literally a Shutterstock system inside of your HubSpot file manager to be able to use in your emails and your landing pages. Um, then, well, it's there for you. But here's the thing, I hate landing pages when you get to it and it just screams fake. Like fake photos, like stock photography, like it doesn't feel like it's even connected to the thing.
[00:12:33] And so like this idea of like, can we just get some pictures of some real people? Can we just maybe get a picture of like, maybe your real office? I don't even care if you're remote. Like whatever the landing page is, can we get something that feels more like you, your brand instead of, again, Slapping in that seven step checklist and slapping on a stock photo and being like, it's a day, ladies and gentlemen, thousands of people are going to give us their email so that we can spam the crap out of like, or, or even like video instead of image on landing pages would be I would love that.
[00:13:11] But we'll talk about a B testing a little bit later and things like that, but. But stock photography, please, by all the toll, if you're listening to this, go back through all of your landing pages and look for where you've used stock photography and come up with a strategy to figure out how to replace that stuff.
[00:13:26] Liz Moorehead: I got to throw in one more too, George, because I had a similar thing. You know, even though I was the one who prepared that episode, the more I sat with these, the more I sat with these questions, I actually went about my week last week and thought, you know, I'm just going to start paying attention to the things that make me go, when I'm looking at a landing page.
[00:13:42] And I remember one of the things that HubSpot rolled out a few years ago was you would end up on a landing page and then you would fill out what you thought was the form. But then you were taken to a separate, second, super secret form with way more information. And like, as a marketer, you're like, this is great because it reduces that first barrier of them like wanting to give their information.
[00:14:08] But then I just feel duped, hoodwinked, bamboozled, led
[00:14:12] George B. Thomas: that's the word. The word duped is the word for, um, for today's episode. You know, it's funny, but
[00:14:19] Max Cohen: I mean, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Because like, instead of you being like, oh, Let me try their product. Oh, their products not that great. You just go. Oh, these people are scumbags before you even get there
[00:14:29] George B. Thomas: Yeah, and let me be completely honest, though, because you say that, and then I remember back in the day where I had this, like, thing that I did, and then I had a second form after it. And the second form was like, I wanna know you it was positioned at By the way, this is me calling myself out on my own ish, historically.
[00:14:47] I literally had a second form that was like, I want to get to know you better. So we can be, like, buddies. And, like, had additional information. And in hindsight, that was, like, the dumbest ish that I ever attempted to
[00:15:02] Liz Moorehead: and not your friend, pal.
[00:15:04] George B. Thomas: it didn't last long. And it's just like, if I take what Max was talking about and, Liz, what you're talking about, it's like, Well, I wanted to be your friend on the first conversion, but I sure don't want to be your friend on the second.
[00:15:15] Like I'm out. You know what I mean? I
[00:15:18] Max Cohen: yeah. Well, let me ask you this George. What was the intent of you gathering that data?
[00:15:22] George B. Thomas: mean, I did want to know more about the humans so that I could communicate with them in a better way. A lot of it was like, how long have you been using HubSpot? What HubSpot hubs are you using? Like, so there was a, there was a positive intent on the other side, but I can understand how it might have felt like, Bro, bro, I just filled out a form.
[00:15:43] Why are you asking me to fill out another
[00:15:44] Max Cohen: Well, did you gate additional stuff from that?
[00:15:47] George B. Thomas: No, no, it was just trying to get to know them better, you know what I mean? I gave them the thing that I said I would give them.
[00:15:53] Max Cohen: Okay, there you go see I think that's okay
[00:15:56] because you didn't
[00:15:57] George B. Thomas: I don't feel bad about myself
[00:15:59] Max Cohen: yeah Cuz that what was there? What was the obligation of them filling up? What did they have to?
[00:16:03] George B. Thomas: No obligation on the second one. Just, I wanted to know
[00:16:05] Max Cohen: That's okay That's okay. Because what you didn't do was oh, here's it You
[00:16:12] gotta be quicker than that.
[00:16:14] That's different. See, that's different to me. Right? Um, you know, it's like the, the worst thing, the way I see people do it, like a really bad worst practice, I guess, in that scenario is like you get email, like the form looks like just email. Okay.
[00:16:32] And you're like, Oh, easy, just email. But they're doing it because they want to capture the email.
[00:16:37] If the rest of the forum turns you off.
[00:16:40] George B. Thomas: Uh.
[00:16:41] Max Cohen: they've at least got your email, right? And so even when you see the next part of the form and you're like, no, I'm sorry, I'm not going to give you my social security number and
[00:16:50] My boss's email address. Right. Yeah. I'm not going to like tell you how many, you know, when my company buys stuff, like, you know what
[00:16:56] I mean?
[00:16:57] Like, and, and, and before I actually get the thing I want to get, well, they go, Oh, that's fine. We got your email. That's all we wanted anyway. That's
[00:17:04] the worst. I think it's a dark pattern is what
[00:17:07] people call
[00:17:07] George B. Thomas: Yeah, the darks like it's it's like the dark side of conversion rate. It's the opposite of conversion rate optimization,
[00:17:15] Max Cohen: Well, I mean, if you think about it, it, it, from a raw like conversion optimization, it's, it's nearly perfect, right? Because you're getting the most valuable thing, which is
[00:17:29] to me a very subjective, uh, idea of value there. Right. You're getting what, what you, what you interpret as the most valuable thing, which is the email address, which, let's be honest, you didn't want to educate somebody.
[00:17:40] You just wanted that the entire time. If you're pulling a scumbag move like this, right, but you're, you're, you're eliminating all the stuff that would get in the way of that conversion happening. So like from conversion optimization standpoint, great. From. Actually doing something useful for that person who's, who's, you know, trying to get your content and learn something you've done.
[00:18:00] Absolutely zero, buddy. You've, you've duped them
[00:18:03] George B. Thomas: It's interesting because we're literally having a selfishness versus servanthood.
[00:18:09] Max Cohen: true.
[00:18:10] George B. Thomas: basis, right? Conversion rate optimization in a selfish way. What can I get out of it? Versus conversion rate optimization of a servanthood. Like, what can I give them? What can they get out
[00:18:20] Max Cohen: but so yes, I agree. The
[00:18:22] moral marketer says yes. Right. The moral yes, I want to serve people
[00:18:27] with content. I want to teach him. But here, here's the other thing. That's not your job. Your job is to make the business money,
[00:18:36] right? And what I'm trying to say is like, sure, that kind of feels good.
[00:18:40] And you should do that. And yeah, you should you do the right thing? Absolutely. Right. But there are reasons beyond just doing the right thing. That makes a lot of these tactics really dumb. You know what I mean?
[00:18:51] And a lot of that, a lot of that comes down to the little micro experiences you're creating for people when they're interacting with your comment that either makes them hate you before they even hate your product.
[00:19:02] Right. You know what I'm
[00:19:03] saying? Right? And so it's just one of those things.
[00:19:06] It's like, Yeah. should you, should you focus on educating people? Yes, not cause it feels good though. Because that's good for your business. Like that, like that, that's the thing. Uh, but, but yeah, I mean. Again, I, I, I am super down with doing the right thing and creating content that actually educates people.
[00:19:24] That makes me feel good and it makes me want to do my job
[00:19:28] and it makes me feel like I'm doing more than just selling a product. I'm educating people and
[00:19:32] getting people's like, here's the thing, not a lot of people operate that way. Right?
[00:19:38] You know what I
[00:19:38] George B. Thomas: what you said, what you said, because let's be honest, like one of my emails over the weekend literally had a playlist to your quote happily a playlist on YouTube because I was like, Hey, you need to check this out because at least you can without getting in the sales funnel. You can at least see if it's gonna be a right fit for what you're trying to do.
[00:19:56] Uh, same thing, by the way, same thing with, um, oh, dang gone it. Um, my friend, my friend with, uh, Um, wow, I'm having a senior moment. I literally am. Pixel Compress! Woo! My goodness! How did I forget the name of that? So, like, talk about, uh, a service or value. By the way, and I'm bringing this up because landing pages, and I just brought up stock photography too.
[00:20:22] Um, the other thing that needs to die is your landing pages don't load quickly. Especially if they don't load quickly on like a mobile device because I'm on my phone a lot, but I'm also on my desktop a lot, but like something like a quote happily or something like pixel compress where they're like adding value by interviews or by tutorial or.
[00:20:43] By just making it your life better because it's like streamlining and optimizing. By the way, they are sponsoring, uh, the podcast right now for the next, I think it's like 30 or 60 days. So you might hear a little ad, uh, in here if you listen, uh, listeners to the very ending or it might even hit you in the middle.
[00:21:01] Pixel compress is amazing. Uh, it's definitely something you should be looking at in your HubSpot portal for optimized images of landing pages. Website pages, uh, even your emails, by the way, if your emails are loading slow, come on, like it's 2025 anyway, let's, let's keep
[00:21:19] Max Cohen: We need to, we need to start doing funny ad reads, I think.
[00:21:22] George B. Thomas: Oh, that would be fun.
[00:21:23] That would be fun.
[00:21:24] Liz Moorehead: Well, you already brought this up, George. So I want to I want to bring this right back to you. So over the years, HubSpot has rolled out so many different tools in regards to how you create more personalized experiences or deeper content experiences. So, for example, AI driven tools or, as you mentioned earlier, smart content features.
[00:21:45] Now, as someone who has a lot of experiences with these tools, George, I would love to hear you talk to our audience for a bit about how we should be leveraging those tools today to optimize landing pages in ways that weren't possible five years ago. Because I know you and I still both encounter landing pages where we're like, you guys, is this, it's.
[00:22:05] Is this 2018? What are we doing here?
[00:22:07] George B. Thomas: Well, well, and some of this, what's funny, I'd like to go back to, by the way, I can't move forward without saying if there's not a book called the moral marketer, somebody needs to write the dang book, the moral marketer. I'm just saying anyway, but, but let's,
[00:22:21] Max Cohen: said not be me, because I can't write a book.
[00:22:23] George B. Thomas: you know, but maybe it should be you, but with a ghost writer anyway.
[00:22:26] Like Liz, here's the thing. What's funny. I'd like to go back and see when the contextual marketing certification came out because it might have been five years ago. You might have been able to do some of the things that I'm about to talk about five years ago. Um, however. Like people don't watch that certification.
[00:22:45] Uh, they don't understand that the thing lives in a left hand sidebar. They don't realize exactly what they can do. Maybe they're just trying to get a landing page out and they're not focused on experience. Right. And that's the thing, like you have to have, and I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but if you're doing value first human centric user experiences.
[00:23:07] And the things are being birthed out of trying to create those experiences. Now you realize that you've got smart content, that you can do some really cool things. And I'll just tell you like this, one of the clients that we get a privilege to work with, um, they help solopreneurs, right? That's their sole focus is to help people either go from being in a job to being a solopreneur or having a solopreneur business that isn't the greatest, but they're, they want to make it great.
[00:23:34] And just being like this community for solopreneurs. They literally have used what two pieces of HubSpot in a magical way. Number one, they use persona, the property, and they use it properly. They've got positive and negative personas. They're using the I'm a statements, um, and, and they're leveraging it for better communication, segmentation, and.
[00:23:58] Smart content, because instead of just having a landing page, they actually have multiple landing pages. Per persona, and so now what they can do is they can literally go and send that human to the landing page for the right conversation for who they are and what they know about them. So they're creating a 1 to 1 instead of a 1 to many experience at a per human level based on a conversion and understanding of who they are.
[00:24:32] And so, like, I want you to think about what you currently have as for, and this is for the listeners, the viewers, what you currently have as a landing page and ask yourself, how much more effective would it be? Not only if we were going to AB test it, that can be, we'll talk about that later. I know I keep kind of pushing it back, but how effective could it be if we actually had 5, 4, 3 different landing pages and we were using it?
[00:25:00] Images and video and text that actually resonated with who they were, we talked to him like we know who they are. We talk about the problems that they're actually facing, like Ricky, the researcher wants it to come to them different than the actual Charlie, the CEO. And I'm just making up persona names because.
[00:25:23] It helps tell the story. And so that's, that's the thing. If you're not looking at list segmentation for smart content, if you're not looking at life cycle stage for, uh, smart content, like, and there's so many other things that you could be doing with this to just create a better. User experience and what might be considered your most important area, conversion, because that starts the conversation to which then equals the cash flow.
[00:25:53] And so taking the extra time to understand, hey, there's a contextual marketing certification. Let's take that. Let's look at our existing landing pages. Let's look at how we're using persona. Let's look at how we're using life cycle stage. Let's look how we're using list segmentation. And let's actually build a real conversion strategy.
[00:26:10] around the tools that HubSpot has given us.
[00:26:12] Liz Moorehead: So I want to take it a step deeper, actually, George, if you'll bear with me for a moment. So I remember when Smart for Content first came out, everybody was excited, right? They were like, Oh, I can change it. So it says. Like if I have two different personas, right? One is an IT manager in an organization, one is a CTO at an organization and they have different thoughts and opinions about a certain topic that we want them to convert on.
[00:26:36] I can change the introductory paragraph. My understanding is that the capacity and capabilities of smart content are much deeper than like, well, you could put a different paragraph
[00:26:47] George B. Thomas: Oh my God, you can have a different form, you can have a different video, you can have a different image, you can have different copy, like now, especially if you're using the content hub, like almost every module or every section, uh, can be smart. If you're like, and by the way, we're talking about landing pages, but this in email is amazing as well.
[00:27:11] Because now not only have you created a dope experience where the form, uh, the module, the copy, the video, the image is smart to them, but when you, they get the communication, the communication in the email is smart as well with the right image, the right verbiage, the right subject line, because you can have smart subject lines.
[00:27:32] Again, this is one place where I don't think enough. marketers, enough business owners dive in and take the time to understand the power that they have with smart content inside of their HubSpot ecosystem.
[00:27:46] Max Cohen: Yeah, I mean, most of them still think it's, uh, it's, it's witchcraft to even just say hi first name on a page,
[00:27:53] right? I think, well, I think the other thing that's interesting too is like, you know, I think outside the box there, it's like, wow. If, if, if, if you're using like smart content, like keep in mind, you can make like entire sections of the page totally different, right? And, you know, sure, maybe you can show a different form or maybe if you have everyone's information and they're already on a list, don't even show a form at all, just replace it with a section that lets them download the piece of content immediately without having to wait for an email or take an unnecessary step, right? Because again, like I think we still, You know, when we don't think about how can it, how can I make my content delivery even easier? Right? Like we're still like forgetting the fact that like someone actually consuming the content is important. So long as you're making like
[00:28:41] so long as like whatever that thing is, so long as that e book is actually valuable and not just some garbage, whatever, right?
[00:28:47] You know, like. You you do want people to consume the content if it's good content if it's not good content You probably shouldn't be putting it out there, right? Because you're you're just increasing the likelihood that someone's gonna have a bad experience with you, right? um, you know and so like i'd say like with the smart content piece like think about ways where you can Make it not a landing page and just like give someone what they need Like if you already have any information you'd be
[00:29:13] George B. Thomas: I mean, that's, that's such a good, uh, value piece there because I mean, listen, you could have it be smart and it could just be a CTA because I know even the moralist of marketers out there is like, uh, but I, but, but how do I track success? Like, listen, if
[00:29:31] Max Cohen: You don't have to
[00:29:32] George B. Thomas: X, Y, Z list, you could have a CTA. And when they click that CTA, they could be downloading it without needing to fill out a form.
[00:29:41] And by the way, then your measurement of successes, you know, every click on that CT is a download. So you can now have the conversation of, well, this piece was downloaded by people in our database, a hundred times this month, the people who clicked the CTA at 27 percent of them also, we have deals that have been created in the
[00:29:59] Max Cohen: Mm hmm.
[00:29:59] George B. Thomas: And, and the human never had to fill out another form ever,
[00:30:02] Max Cohen: there's plenty of ways to track stuff without, like, forcing a conversion,
[00:30:05] you know? Um, I'd say, like, I used to have a really, really good talk track about this, and I definitely have forgotten it, because I'm not repeating it every two weeks to a bunch of new hires, but I think, um, The big thing that I was trying to like get across like, okay, if you are making a landing page Uh, or for that matter any sort of page with a form on it, which I guess Is always going to be some kind of
[00:30:30] Landing page, I guess.
[00:30:31] Yeah
[00:30:31] George B. Thomas: be service,
[00:30:32] Max Cohen: sure um
[00:30:34] George B. Thomas: so much, in this last week and this week we were talking about ebooks, guides, checklists, but let's be
[00:30:38] Max Cohen: Yeah, yeah, I guess if we think about I think I guess if we think about like, you know a form in the marketing sense Right because like let's be honest. The only piece of information you you probably think you need is email Right, but you know, the the thing that I always tell people is when you're deciding what questions to put on a form on a landing page, you you have to play the risk and reward game, right?
[00:31:03] I think I've talked about this before in the show, like a long time ago, but like every single time you put another question on a form, right? And I still think this holds true today, right? You are risking. That someone is going to go, ah, that's too much information to give away. Or it's going to take me too long to fill the form out, or I'm not comfortable giving that away. Right? Like every single time you add anything else onto that form, you're increasing that chance a little bit that you're going to turn someone away from it. Right? So what you need to do is you need to say, hey, if I'm going to risk putting this question on this form, is there a big reward for me as a marketer?
[00:31:41] And so the question is, is like, how do you. True. Yeah. Yeah. But it's still, it's, it's, you know, if it helps your sales team, I guess it helps you.
[00:31:49] Right. So the reward is what would be a reward is like, can I use this piece of information to market to this person more effectively and create a better experience for them? Right. Creating a better experience
[00:32:02] for them is not ready is not let me get their phone number super fast so I can have a BDR go interrupt their day. No. Right? But, a good example is asking that, Persona question. Getting a general idea of who the, who this person is.
[00:32:19] so like, yeah, getting their phone number and having someone call them way before may, may appear as a valuable piece of information for your sales team who, sorry guys, all they know is just how to just incessantly pester people until they say go away, right? Um, you know, but again, maybe ask that persona question so I can at least get A slight understanding of what might be relevant to send to you in the future.
[00:32:44] Not, not just because I want to be a moral marketer. So I don't send you stuff that makes you go, Wow, these people are annoying,
[00:32:51] right? And immediately lose credibility with you.
[00:32:54] Okay,
[00:32:54] George B. Thomas: to look at it as like, what information can I ask for the value I'm giving that is a snapshot of understanding?
[00:33:01] Max Cohen: Yeah.
[00:33:02] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:02] George B. Thomas: you know what I mean, the rest of the journey I can get more, but I at least need that initial snapshot to, to provide better, um, pathways in the future, we'll say.
[00:33:12] Max Cohen: Correct. Yeah. And you know, just making it so that like the product, because the product that you provide to them before they actually buy the thing that you sell, The product that your company provides as a marketing experience,
[00:33:25] George B. Thomas: Yep.
[00:33:26] Max Cohen: right? And so you got to say, what questions can I ask to deliver that product in the meantime, much better. Right. Um, you know, I think a lot of it comes down even to just like the same conversation we have around, um, uh, like why we do these things or why we think about these things in this way is the same reason why we talk about why like customer service is so important. Right? It's another one of those things where it feels really good to do it and sure you have a lot of opportunities to do the morally good business thing and a lot of customer service situations and you have a lot of opportunity to do the right thing, right?
[00:34:03] But it's not just doing the right thing because it feels good. It's doing the right thing because that's good for business, right?
[00:34:08] Um, you know, the same thing goes for a lot of the stuff that we're talking about.
[00:34:11] George B. Thomas: Yeah, you, uh, you have said do the right thing so many times in this episode. It makes me want to go back and watch the movie, Do the Right Thing. I haven't watched it
[00:34:20] Max Cohen: Let's just hope it makes people want to actually do the right thing.
[00:34:22] George B. Thomas: Yep, right? The right thing is always the right thing. Liz, what's next? We're, we're, we're Hurt, hurt us. We're, we're having a good conversation,
[00:34:29] Liz Moorehead: No, I wanted to keep you. No, I wanted
[00:34:32] Max Cohen: just said
[00:34:32] Liz Moorehead: on that conversation for a reason.
[00:34:34] George B. Thomas: No, heard. Heard, not hurt. Heard.
[00:34:37] Max Cohen: Come on Liz. Hurt us. Hurt us please.
[00:34:41] Dude, ask us a painful question.
[00:34:43] George B. Thomas: No!
[00:34:43] Max Cohen: Hurt us.
[00:34:44] George B. Thomas: I don't want a painful question. I don't like needles.
[00:34:47] Liz Moorehead: Well, I'm going to call out a painfully obvious Point that we need to address, right? So one of the things that we've been talking about over the past, this episode and the last episode about landing pages is how so much of the content has become transactional, flimsy. You're not really digging into the depth of what it is that's being offered.
[00:35:06] Things like that. But we also have to contend with the fact that people's attention spans are getting shorter.
[00:35:12] Max Cohen: Uh huh.
[00:35:13] Liz Moorehead: So how do we check both of those boxes? Right. Cause I think we can all close our eyes. And imagine a circa 2014 landing page. Would you like this ebook? Download now. You will learn blank, blank, blank, and more.
[00:35:30] Please give us your name, your phone number, your firstborn's, child's name, like all of these different things, right? But still, the meat of that landing page was pretty weak sauce. But today people have shorter attention spans, but they want more value and they want more substance. So how do we, how, how, how, and why? Do you like that,
[00:35:50] Max Cohen: We st We stop using landing pages. We just start creating content where people actually want to get it.
[00:35:56] Liz Moorehead: Well, that's the thing, George. You and I did that with content. Like we, like, just don't, here's the whole thing. If you would like it for later, you can still also download it.
[00:36:06] Max Cohen: Uh, yeah. See, the thing is, is like, where So, before, people were okay, I think, getting their value by going, Let me go find the thing, and let me go, uh, fill out this form, so I can then get the thing, and then let me go get into my email address and open up the file and read it. But now, We're in the Zero attention span swipe swipe
[00:36:28] go through like what?
[00:36:30] no, no, no, no what i'm saying is Lean into that stuff, right? Like and and and and here's the question. Okay. Hold up ready think if you were to sit somebody down and say Is it more important to you? Well, actually george, let me ask you.
[00:36:46] George B. Thomas: Oh God, here we go.
[00:36:48] Max Cohen: Yeah Is it more important to you that somebody consumes a piece of content and then in their, in their brain feels better about you and better about your brand and maybe learn something or you get an email address? What would you rather have happen?
[00:37:08] George B. Thomas: I would rather have the human consume the content, but I'll add a caveat, and they would feel better about themselves or the situation that they're in because of, uh, the content that we've
[00:37:21] Max Cohen: Way, way more valuable than an email.
[00:37:24] Getting an email, right? So my question would be, if you want to create more opportunities for that to happen, right? You're probably going to go the route that puts the least, you know, in front of that as possible and gets people there quicker, right? And I would think you do what you, I mean, George, you already do this.
[00:37:46] You create an insane amount of content that's ungated,
[00:37:49] you know what I mean? And I think like. That's in the, in, when we talk about the, the age, the, the age of shortening attention span, I was saying this back when I was, you know, doing marketing onboarding. So I was like, we're in the age where people want to watch, not read. So like go instead of writing this frigging giant ebook, dude, go start the YouTube channel. Right. Go like get the content out there. It's going to change the hearts and minds and like put a hundred percent of your focus into that. Then hyper fixating on getting email.
[00:38:22] Right?
[00:38:23] George B. Thomas: I mean, listen, like,
[00:38:25] Max Cohen: Landing pages have their place like they do for sure, but like when we talk about short attention stuff, short attention span stuff and how to combat that. I mean, if it's in the, if it's in the context of landing pages, then sure. It's like minimal questions on the form, right? Maybe you do limit distractions in ways that aren't super sketchy, right? But I think also make it like abundantly clear what someone's getting. If they do fill the form out, right? So there isn't any ambiguity, right?
[00:38:57] Because the last thing you want someone doing when they're going like, oh, no I really want to fill this form out is them going. I don't really know what i'm getting if I fill this out
[00:39:05] Right
[00:39:06] George B. Thomas: filling it out if I don't
[00:39:07] Max Cohen: exactly right. So it'd be super clear on what the offer is or whatever it is that someone's happening
[00:39:12] George B. Thomas: And by the way, don't, don't be fluffy with, like, download our ebook, just shut the, no, like, actually, like, anyway. So, here's the thing though, my brain is battling with this because I don't know if we have a short attention span, and let me explain. I think we do when it's, when things might be like crappy, or when we're trying to escape.
[00:39:38] Right? Like we're just trying to escape and so we'll go on Facebook or we'll go on YouTube and we'll watch the shorts and we'll, you know, get thumb cramps because we're just like, we're just, we're checking out, we're escaping. When I, when it comes to what's important though, I think, or what's good, I don't think that we have a short attention span.
[00:39:58] Like, listen, I've sat and watched both Avatar movies back to back, right? Um, I didn't have a short attention span shoot this weekend. I made it a point to have some downtime. I watched almost a season and a half of the chosen. That was not a short attention span a season and a half of the chosen. Right?
[00:40:18] And so, but it was something good. And here's the key that I want people to think about. It's the journey. You're on a journey, and if your content, whether it be landing page, because now you're using it as a pillar page, but if your content can put them on a journey, and so maybe you do have a couple micro videos that are actually in some copy, and maybe you have some other media elements, like a podcast that happens to be embedded in, like, whatever it is, You're trying to create a journey, a good journey of valuable information that may eventually lead to a conversion.
[00:40:56] Listen, I want to circle back around on something else here. Max, you said you've, you've created a lot of ungated content. Me, right? Brother, I've been creating content since 2013 and I've given a lot of it away. And let's be honest with you, I'm still kind of giving it away and I'm realizing that it's less about any type of conversion and it's more about maximizing conversations and it's about scaling who I am.
[00:41:25] And this is literally, we're talking about one of the reasons why I've created helper. georgebthomas. com, which is the HubSpot slash human helper, the clone that has all of that free content. That has trained it in to be what it needs to be or what it can be for people. And now you can go in and you can extract whatever value you need out of all of that content at any given point in time, 24 seven.
[00:41:52] So scaling helpfulness, forgetting about conversion, by the way, there's only, there's, you can use it for free or you can get unlimited access for 25 bucks a month, 24 seven HubSpot help, no matter what. And if you go to the landing page for it, by the way, it's georgebthomas. com forward slash helper.
[00:42:10] There's not a fricking form on it. It's a button that takes you to the clone so that you can start a conversation with it. Because, again, you've got to start thinking about the experience. You've got to start thinking about the journey. You've got to start thinking about the human. And, and if you're going to be a moral marketer, what does that mean that you might have to change over time?
[00:42:28] By the way, in the last two episodes, we've given you an ishton things that you need to go back and look and see about changing your landing pages.
[00:42:37] Liz Moorehead: You know, you said something, George, in your answer there that I want to point out. think sometimes we have a very reductive thought process when we hear someone say, well, our audiences have shorter attention spans. They will commit to deep, lengthy content if they see the value in it. So
[00:42:55] Max Cohen: And if they're looking for it
[00:42:57] Liz Moorehead: span short?
[00:42:58] Is it the overall attention span that shortening or is it the window you have to demonstrate the value that is
[00:43:04] George B. Thomas: Yes.
[00:43:05] Liz Moorehead: And part of the reason why I think it's getting shorter is because historically marketers have not done a very good job of demonstrating value. We either believe that what we are trying to give them is obvious or quite frankly, that you should just understand.
[00:43:21] That you owe us your information before we show you what is actually valuable.
[00:43:26] George B. Thomas: listen, I was, Oh God, I was on, um,
[00:43:31] Liz Moorehead: since I've made George like that. I'm very
[00:43:33] George B. Thomas: Oh my God. I was on a, uh, so, uh, I love all of the, all right. I love all of the humans. I was on a marketing profs webinar. If you happen to be the person who was on the webinar and said this, and you're listening to this podcast, I apologize. I don't know your name.
[00:43:51] I can't use your name. I won't use your name. But I literally got a question at the end of a 40, 35, 40 minute session about all the strategy and tactics B2B marketers should be using when it comes to video. Nowadays in 2025 and, and the question came to me of yes, but how do I do this without giving away the secret sauce?
[00:44:13] And I about lost my dang mind because the value is in the secret sauce. The conversion is in the secret sauce. The conversation is in the secret sauce. The cash flow, the ROI, the revenue is in the secret sauce. Share it. That's what you do?
[00:44:37] I might need a minute
[00:44:39] Max Cohen: I mean, it's, it's, there's a lot of truth behind that, right? Like, I think you gotta remember, when you go and share the secret sauce, right? There's, I think it was just what, one of, one of two or one of three things that happen, right? Actually, yeah, it's one of three things that happen, right? Um, the majority of people are gonna just read it and go, Ugh, and not do anything. Then, there's gonna be two people left, right? The folks that Take the advice that the secret sauce offers and goes and solve their problem or hits their goal or challenge or does whatever with that. And then you've created a really great, um, you know, promoter of your content, which is something that you want.
[00:45:19] So you want other people going, this content's good. It helped me do this thing. Right? And they're going to share it out to other people and then other people are going to see it. It's going to have a compounding effect, right? And then the other people are going to go, Oh, that's an interesting way to solve my goal or challenge.
[00:45:34] Thank you for the secret sauce. They're going to slip the secret sauce and then they're going to go, Oh, this is actually way too hard. But you guys seem to know what you're doing. Let
[00:45:41] me hire you. That's literally all that could happen, right? What a lot of people think is they're going to their competitors going to go, Oh, that is their secret sauce.
[00:45:48] We are going to then steal their idea and do exactly what
[00:45:51] they do. No, dude, no, that's not what's going to happen. What's going to happen is those two things, right? It's again, physics of content, physics of, physics of marketing. But yeah, I mean, give away your secret sauce. That's the whole point. I guess.
[00:46:03] Guess what? If you don't put any secret sauce to your content, your content's going to suck.
[00:46:07] Liz Moorehead: Imagine a Big Mac without secret sauce.
[00:46:10] Max Cohen: Exactly.
[00:46:10] George B. Thomas: that's not a big mac. It's just a bun and some
[00:46:13] Liz Moorehead: Sad
[00:46:13] Max Cohen: Yeah, but it's
[00:46:15] George B. Thomas: Oh, that's right there. That's
[00:46:16] Max Cohen: a bun,
[00:46:17] George B. Thomas: Nobody wants landing pages that are sad meat. Just gonna throw that
[00:46:22] Max Cohen: Yo, sad meat is wild, dude.
[00:46:28] Liz Moorehead: Thank you. Thank you. I try to have at least one good punchline per quarter. See y'all on Q2. All right. So George, I want you to take us home. We've had a really interesting, expansive discussion today about The nature of quality content in landing pages and how we actually create that. What are the between one and 75, 000 things you would like our listeners to walk away from today's episode with?
[00:46:58] George B. Thomas: No. One thing.
[00:47:00] Liz Moorehead: Oh my God. Are you serious?
[00:47:02] George B. Thomas: One thing. One, one thing. One thing. Here, here's the deal. This is what I want you to do. I want you to go look at your landing page, or landing pages, and I want you to ask yourself a question. Um, is this landing page all about the humans, or all about us? If it's not about the humans, and the experience, and the value that you can give them, fix it.
[00:47:28] Now. Today.
